EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 42 post(s)
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.02 09:51:00 - [1] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 02/11/2005 09:55:58 On the changes in general: I like the ideas here (nice job). I can imagine some tweeking is still needed, and I look forward to testing this out on the test server. :) TBH, I fail to see much reason behind many of the whines here. Seems to me that balance can generally be maintained with these changes, and drone specialists can finially come into thier own. On the Domi: It's true that the Dom losses more damage for every E-War drone it uses, but it also gains versatility via being able to carry a wider variety of drones (E-War and otherwise) for any possible situation it encounters. This added benefit counteracts the loss of dmg when such drones is used, in my eyes (and, to a lesser extent, this goes for all drone carriers).
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.02 09:51:00 - [2] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 02/11/2005 09:55:58 On the changes in general: I like the ideas here (nice job). I can imagine some tweeking is still needed, and I look forward to testing this out on the test server. :) TBH, I fail to see much reason behind many of the whines here. Seems to me that balance can generally be maintained with these changes, and drone specialists can finially come into thier own. On the Domi: It's true that the Dom losses more damage for every E-War drone it uses, but it also gains versatility via being able to carry a wider variety of drones (E-War and otherwise) for any possible situation it encounters. This added benefit counteracts the loss of dmg when such drones is used, in my eyes (and, to a lesser extent, this goes for all drone carriers).
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 03:22:00 - [3] Response to the Domi pilots that have a problem with this change: 1) As has been pointed out in this thread many times before, in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect, you are gaining a great deal of versatility by having drones in your bay for any possible situation you encounter. This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. Verstility: learn it and respect it, and then you can come back and post again. 2) Instead of having two full waves of drones in your bay, you will have have three full waves of drones, or two full waves plus extra E-WAR drones. This is very much a boost. [See above, for versatility.] 3) For the most part, you dont often need E-WAR drones, as the domi is a very capable E-WAR ship to begin with- and the mods will serve you much better than the drones. The drones will just further supliment this ability with a very flexable set of E-WAR drones in your bay for any situation you run into. [See versatility above.] 4) Any other ship that uses these drones will have to reduce thier dmg output to do so, just like the Domi. The dmg will be reduced slightly less than if it were a Domi, but see "versatility" above. 5) Domi is my ship of choice, and I think these changes are great. Ive come to worry a bit about the webber drones, but Ill hold my comments until I see them in action.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 03:22:00 - [4] Response to the Domi pilots that have a problem with this change: 1) As has been pointed out in this thread many times before, in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect, you are gaining a great deal of versatility by having drones in your bay for any possible situation you encounter. This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. Verstility: learn it and respect it, and then you can come back and post again. 2) Instead of having two full waves of drones in your bay, you will have have three full waves of drones, or two full waves plus extra E-WAR drones. This is very much a boost. [See above, for versatility.] 3) For the most part, you dont often need E-WAR drones, as the domi is a very capable E-WAR ship to begin with- and the mods will serve you much better than the drones. The drones will just further supliment this ability with a very flexable set of E-WAR drones in your bay for any situation you run into. [See versatility above.] 4) Any other ship that uses these drones will have to reduce thier dmg output to do so, just like the Domi. The dmg will be reduced slightly less than if it were a Domi, but see "versatility" above. 5) Domi is my ship of choice, and I think these changes are great. Ive come to worry a bit about the webber drones, but Ill hold my comments until I see them in action.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 04:14:00 - [5] Quote: Incorrect. False. You loose no dmg with 5 (new) drones vs 15 (old) drones. Quote: Any situation? You seem to be suggesting we'll be able to fit a full set of 5 drones of all the different types No, and you wouldn't really need to do that either. Point was, you can fill your hold with drones set for different situations: Some as "frig poppers", some as jammers/disrupters, some as dmg dealers, ect. Quote: while ignoring the fact that we need a full set of 15 damage drones in order to keep our drones HPs the same (and lock times still less thus more frail, and travel times still longer thus less effective). Nope, not ignoring- taking this as a tradeoff for the boosts. Quote: Also, I don't think it's as usefull as you make it out to be. The drones you want to use will mostly depend on your ship setup, and this is determined before you undock. Added versatility which will compliment your setup. Even better! Quote: 50% is small?!? It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes. Quote: I'll take the 2 waves and the +50% bonus to efficacy that we currently have, thanks. Incorrect. Use drones as you do now, they will be as effective in most situations, slight less effective in some, and you have the potential to make them much more effective than any other pilot- and more effective dmg than you have now (see sentry drones, and stop ignoring them). Quote: Not just like the Domi, far far less than the Domi, see the 50% above. Overshadowed by extra waves of drones, more versatility in, arguably, one of the most veratile BSs already in game, and other potential boosts in power beyond any other pilot (sentry drones). Sorry, but compared to that your arguments are lame, IMO.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 04:14:00 - [6] Quote: Incorrect. False. You loose no dmg with 5 (new) drones vs 15 (old) drones. Quote: Any situation? You seem to be suggesting we'll be able to fit a full set of 5 drones of all the different types No, and you wouldn't really need to do that either. Point was, you can fill your hold with drones set for different situations: Some as "frig poppers", some as jammers/disrupters, some as dmg dealers, ect. Quote: while ignoring the fact that we need a full set of 15 damage drones in order to keep our drones HPs the same (and lock times still less thus more frail, and travel times still longer thus less effective). Nope, not ignoring- taking this as a tradeoff for the boosts. Quote: Also, I don't think it's as usefull as you make it out to be. The drones you want to use will mostly depend on your ship setup, and this is determined before you undock. Added versatility which will compliment your setup. Even better! Quote: 50% is small?!? It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes. Quote: I'll take the 2 waves and the +50% bonus to efficacy that we currently have, thanks. Incorrect. Use drones as you do now, they will be as effective in most situations, slight less effective in some, and you have the potential to make them much more effective than any other pilot- and more effective dmg than you have now (see sentry drones, and stop ignoring them). Quote: Not just like the Domi, far far less than the Domi, see the 50% above. Overshadowed by extra waves of drones, more versatility in, arguably, one of the most veratile BSs already in game, and other potential boosts in power beyond any other pilot (sentry drones). Sorry, but compared to that your arguments are lame, IMO.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 08:07:00 - [7] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 08:09:09 Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 08:08:29 Quote: Uhh, you said "in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect" which is incorrect, I don't have DI5, I do lose damage.. Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Quote: That's not how it works. If you assume someone fills bay with 'other' drones, then you should be also mentioning the severe nerf to drone survivability, which you are conveniently not mentioning in the analysis. Drones are being given more survivability in some ways, which you conveniently fail to mention. And there is no possible "nerf" for 'other' drones, under any circumstance here, period. There cant be, because these new drones dont exist yet. You're really reaching here, aren't you? Quote: Right, the same versatility that everyone else has... Wrong, without the dronebay size of a Domi, no other ship will ever have such versatility, so it will never be "the same". Sorry... Quote: The Domi gets a little more versatility in feild, but at a pretty damn hefty cost that most would never pay. It wouldn't pay a "cost" at all if the drones you use are exactly the drones the situation calls for. Quote: The amount you lose more is 50%, the amount damage drones do more is 50%, so 50% is small in comparison to 50%? O.o I'd say that's equal in comparison, but hell, what do I know, I think 12.6 is less than 13, and 11.25 is less than 15 too, so clearly I can't do math. Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. See how easy it is to throw around numbers that dont mean much? Now here is the proper way to talk about the issue: Compared to the total dmg a ship is cabable of, using a "new drone" will reduce it by a certain percentage (depending on the setup and skills). In general (but not always), the Domi will tend to loose a higher percentage compared to other ships. This has been achknowledged. But the benefits of more drones (greater versatility) offsets this disadvantage.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 08:07:00 - [8] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 08:09:09 Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 08:08:29 Quote: Uhh, you said "in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect" which is incorrect, I don't have DI5, I do lose damage.. Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Quote: That's not how it works. If you assume someone fills bay with 'other' drones, then you should be also mentioning the severe nerf to drone survivability, which you are conveniently not mentioning in the analysis. Drones are being given more survivability in some ways, which you conveniently fail to mention. And there is no possible "nerf" for 'other' drones, under any circumstance here, period. There cant be, because these new drones dont exist yet. You're really reaching here, aren't you? Quote: Right, the same versatility that everyone else has... Wrong, without the dronebay size of a Domi, no other ship will ever have such versatility, so it will never be "the same". Sorry... Quote: The Domi gets a little more versatility in feild, but at a pretty damn hefty cost that most would never pay. It wouldn't pay a "cost" at all if the drones you use are exactly the drones the situation calls for. Quote: The amount you lose more is 50%, the amount damage drones do more is 50%, so 50% is small in comparison to 50%? O.o I'd say that's equal in comparison, but hell, what do I know, I think 12.6 is less than 13, and 11.25 is less than 15 too, so clearly I can't do math. Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. See how easy it is to throw around numbers that dont mean much? Now here is the proper way to talk about the issue: Compared to the total dmg a ship is cabable of, using a "new drone" will reduce it by a certain percentage (depending on the setup and skills). In general (but not always), the Domi will tend to loose a higher percentage compared to other ships. This has been achknowledged. But the benefits of more drones (greater versatility) offsets this disadvantage.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 10:04:58 Quote: Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. It's funny how you keep saying you "loose 50% dmg" by using a new drone (which would require you to have Gallante BS at lev 5), but when it suits your argument, you suddenly use the figure of having Gallante BS at lev 4. With lev 5 BS you would be wrong. With the above, very specific, situation, you would be right. So what? shrug Quote: I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I didnt change anything. You just misunderstood. And the real point was the comparison of total dmg of one ship vs another, via drones. I realize I wasn't entirely clear on that point, but oh well. Quote: But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. Assuming max skills. But again, the only point I made was that the total dmg lost by a domi pilot is small compared to other BS pilots. As in the domi pilot looses 13.25 - 29 DPS more (depending on skills and choice of drones). Not a whole lot compared to the DMG BSs are capable of pumping out. Quote: It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... 1) No, you didnt cite the exact number. But I did, above. Read it and read my quote again, and then maybe you'll get it. (And, keep in mind, the number I gave assumes Gallente BS at lev 5- in most cases, the number would be smaller than that). 2) This is a small number. And it didnt "change" from what I was "originally talking about". You simply misunderstood. See above. Quote: I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out) Heh, I was just going to say the same thing about you. Quote: ...you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I suppose so. But your arguments are quite skewed, which is what Ive been arguing about.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:03:00 - [10] Edited by: Paradox Eve on 04/11/2005 10:04:58 Quote: Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. It's funny how you keep saying you "loose 50% dmg" by using a new drone (which would require you to have Gallante BS at lev 5), but when it suits your argument, you suddenly use the figure of having Gallante BS at lev 4. With lev 5 BS you would be wrong. With the above, very specific, situation, you would be right. So what? shrug Quote: I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I didnt change anything. You just misunderstood. And the real point was the comparison of total dmg of one ship vs another, via drones. I realize I wasn't entirely clear on that point, but oh well. Quote: But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. Assuming max skills. But again, the only point I made was that the total dmg lost by a domi pilot is small compared to other BS pilots. As in the domi pilot looses 13.25 - 29 DPS more (depending on skills and choice of drones). Not a whole lot compared to the DMG BSs are capable of pumping out. Quote: It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... 1) No, you didnt cite the exact number. But I did, above. Read it and read my quote again, and then maybe you'll get it. (And, keep in mind, the number I gave assumes Gallente BS at lev 5- in most cases, the number would be smaller than that). 2) This is a small number. And it didnt "change" from what I was "originally talking about". You simply misunderstood. See above. Quote: I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out) Heh, I was just going to say the same thing about you. Quote: ...you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I suppose so. But your arguments are quite skewed, which is what Ive been arguing about.

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